1 1 HOUSING AUTHORITY OF THE CITY OF NEWARK 2 NEWARK, NEW JERSEY 3 THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 17, 2022 4 x--------------------------------x 5 IN THE MATTER OF: * 6 THE REGULAR MEETING * TRANSCRIPT 7 OF THE HOUSING AUTHORITY * OF 8 OF THE CITY OF NEWARK * PROCEEDINGS 9 Commencing at 5:08 p.m. * 10 x--------------------------------x 11 HOUSING AUTHORITY OF THE CITY OF NEWARK 12 500 BROAD STREET 13 NEWARK, NEW JERSEY 14 B E F O R E: 15 HOUSING AUTHORITY OF THE CITY OF NEWARK 16 NORMA GONZALEZ, President 17 FAUSTO BAEZ, Commissioner 18 BRIAN LOGAN, Commissioner (Absent) 19 ALIF MUHAMMAD, Commissioner 20 IMAM DAUD HAQQ, Commissioner 21 PATRICK COUNCIL, Commissioner 22 23 24 ANTHONY HOFMANN, C.C.R. 25 LICENSE NO. XIO1854 2 1 PROFESSIONAL STAFF: 2 3 VICTOR CIRILO, Executive Director 4 KATIA OLIVEIRA, Executive Assistant 5 ELIO MENA, Counsel 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 I N D E X 2 PAGE 3 Opening Statement 4 4 Public Participation 5 By: Myrna Brown 7 6 By: Marvin Bowman 49 7 By: Felicia Alston Singleton 54 8 9 Items for Approval 16 10 11 RESOLUTIONS PAGE 12 H-1 through H-5 59 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Good evening, 2 everyone. It is Thursday, November 17. It's 3 approximately 5:08 and I'm calling the Housing 4 Authority City of Newark's Board meeting of the 5 Board of Commissioners. I'm calling the meeting to 6 order. 7 Director Cirilo, could you please take 8 a roll call and read the Open Public Meetings Act. 9 MR. CIRILO: Yes, Madame Chair. 10 As required by N.J.S.A. 10:4-6 known 11 as the Open Public Meetings Act, notice of the 12 meeting was provided in the following manner. On 13 December 3, 2021 notice of this meeting specifying 14 the date, time and location was transmitted to the 15 Star Ledger, El Especialito and to the Clerk of the 16 City of Newark. 17 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you. I 18 would like to ask Commissioner Patrick Council to 19 host a prayer for us, please. 20 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: God, we thank 21 you for bringing us together. We thank you for this 22 meeting. We ask that you increase the business at 23 hand is beneficial to the people that is of service. 24 We ask all these blessings in the name that is 25 represented by your name. We pray in Jesus name. 5 1 Amen. 2 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: I'm also going 3 to ask you to please stand for the Pledge of 4 Allegiance and Patrick Council could lead us. 5 (Whereupon, the Pledge of Allegiance 6 was recited.) 7 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Now, could you 8 please have the roll call. 9 MR. CIRILO: Yes, Madam Chair. 10 Commissioner Council. 11 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: Present. 12 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Haqq. 13 Commissioner Muhammad. 14 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Here. 15 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Logan. 16 Commissioner Baez. 17 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Present. 18 MR. CIRILO: Chairwoman Gonzalez. 19 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Present. 20 MR. CIRILO: Madam Chair, we have a 21 quorum. 22 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you. 23 Before we have our speakers, would you please read 24 out the public participants information. 25 MR. CIRILO: Sure, Madam Chair. 6 1 In accordance with the Open Public 2 Meetings Act, the Housing Authority of the City of 3 Newark opens every public meeting for comments of 4 the public. Each person choosing to speak at the 5 meetings will be limited to five minutes to speak on 6 any subject on or off the agenda. All speakers must 7 state their name and address for the record. 8 However, in accordance with N.J.S.A. 10:4-12 nothing 9 in the Act shall construe to limit the discretion of 10 a public body to permit, prohibit or regulate the 11 active participation at any meeting. Therefore, be 12 advised that the Housing Authority of the City of 13 Newark will not entertain any comments from persons 14 who communicate obscene material, make statements 15 which are considered bias intimidation in which a 16 person intends to intimidate an individual or group 17 because of race, color, religion, gender, handicap, 18 sexual orientation or ethnicity or makes comments 19 intending to harass or speak in any offensive 20 language. That person who makes these statements 21 will relinquish their allotted five minutes from 22 public discussion. Any person who persists in 23 speaking out of turn or interrupts the peace and 24 order of the meeting will be escorted off the 25 premises. 7 1 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you. 2 I would like to call our first 3 speaker, Ms. Myrna Brown. 4 MS. BROWN: Good evening, everybody. 5 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Good evening. 6 MS. BROWN: First of all, I want to 7 say thank you Mr. Cirilo for the communication we 8 had when there is tenants that had a situation and 9 you addressed them as an emergency so whatever the 10 situation may be. Thank you for your cooperation. 11 Thank you, Ms. Gonzalez and Board members. 12 My first question is to the Board 13 members. I think the Board members should not be on 14 your telephones. You should give us your undivided 15 attention, undivided attention. When you are on 16 your cellphone that makes it seem like you are not 17 really focused on what we are saying up here and I 18 think that's rude. That's really rude when you're 19 talking to someone and they are on their phone. So 20 I don't want to hear this mess, that is how I feel. 21 You are not really concerned about what we are 22 coming up and addressing to you. 23 The next thing I want to bring you 24 some information that you may not know how the 25 resident advisory is and what's the responsibilities 8 1 that everyone should get from this agency. This 2 agency must provide a meeting space. By law the 3 Housing Authority has to provide resources to the 4 RAB. Resources include meeting spaces, computer 5 access, supplies. Funds section 8 don't get, but 6 you do supply the funds to public housing, but we 7 have to get those other things that is resources 8 that your public housing get. Let's be fair. You 9 choose to have two RAB boards then you have to treat 10 us the same way. You can't treat them different and 11 they're not the money makers. Public Section 8 is 12 your money makers in here. This City is ran on 13 Section 8 tenants. It is helping these landlords, 14 these property owners. There are some things that 15 we address and we see and we are being treated. We 16 need to know how to address it, what your 17 responsibility is and we need to know what the City 18 is because we are going to go to those Council 19 people. We are going to go to that Board because 20 these landlords need to be addressed. They are 21 getting a lot of money if you do your math. 22 Now, my second question is if any 23 amendments was added to this annual plan that is 24 supposed to be put onto HUD, the RAB is responsible 25 of this agency is supposed to have these RAB boards 9 1 and have a meeting with y'all with this annual plan 2 and discuss what you want to amend whether it be 3 your security issue, whether it be your rent issue, 4 your maintenance issue. The tenants are supposed to 5 be there. We are supposed to be collaborating 6 together and see what we can do. That is really how 7 it should be ran. It's in the regs. I will find 8 some information, Mr. Muhammad. 9 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: You see me 10 looking. 11 MS. BROWN: I see you looking. Who 12 was the boiler director for operations? Who is the 13 director or do you have one that oversees these 14 boilers on these sites, every site. Because the 15 operation that you have or the service you are 16 giving these residents is not good. You don't just 17 have seniors in your senior buildings, you have 18 seniors in your low rise. You have seniors in your 19 townhouse and these seniors have illness and they 20 need that heat because their body gets cold and it 21 is not fair that they have certain illness that they 22 need their blood is low. People calling me I ain't 23 got no heat, it is down, low. The managers are 24 saying check the radiator. Again, your management, 25 managements and I can give you some names if you 10 1 want. Is not treating these people right. 2 I don't know how much training you 3 want to do. You either going to train them twenty 4 times. If you got to keep training somebody on the 5 same thing over and other again and you are getting 6 the same results, you got to let them go. You got 7 to let them go. They are here for the money from us 8 and it's not fair that people is just getting 9 treated wrong. You are not going to live like that 10 with a hole up in your ceiling. You are not going 11 to live like that with feces that ran back from a 12 backup in your house and the manager going to ask 13 you, oh, did you put something in the toilet, did 14 you put food in the toilet. No, get up off your 15 behind and come with your guy and see what's going 16 on instead of sitting in the office. They need to 17 do walk around. I do it. I done gave you some 18 information on your sites. That's not fair to the 19 people. 20 Now, I want to know why our answers 21 wasn't given back because that question I do want to 22 know who that boiler operation is and we want to 23 know why we are still paying seven hundred fifty 24 dollars a month for a car. That is seven hundred 25 dollars for your car and boiler and we ain't got 11 1 heat for the residents. We got to stop playing 2 family, friends and relatives or whatever you are 3 doing. If you ain't going to do the job right, 4 cousin, sister, brother, significant other, you got 5 to go. You got to go. 6 That's my concerns and for the working 7 for the space we are going to do a massive meeting, 8 not this year because it is going to be two months. 9 I am going to work with them by January we are going 10 to have our massive meeting for Section 8 people so 11 we have a whole agenda and I am willing to ask any 12 of y'all to come because that is where I'm at now. 13 I can't no more. I live in it too and I'm not going 14 to be taken this nonsense from nobody, no landlord, 15 nobody. City bet get on their boiler too because I 16 am coming. I never came, but when it comes to me 17 living and my family, I am not giving up no money to 18 somebody that I am going to be living poorly, rat 19 hole, no. 20 Thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Commissioner 22 Gonzalez. 23 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Before you 24 speak, thank you, Ms. Brown. Once you are done, 25 I'll say something too, Commissioner. 12 1 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: I just -- Ms. 2 Brown, did you get your answers from last month? 3 MS. BROWN: No answers from the 4 previous months. 5 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: I'd like for 6 you to show me, not today, but later when we are 7 doing the financial packages that the residents have 8 to be involved. I never heard that. 9 MS. BROWN: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: E.D., you ever 11 heard of that before on the financial and the 12 budget? I never heard that before. 13 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: No. 14 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Thank you. 15 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: I just wanted 16 to thank you and I said I was going to speak. 17 Please let -- Director, I'm going to let all the 18 speakers speak, but you have to make sure that we 19 respond back to the questions in writing and that we 20 get a cc, all the Commissioners, so we can know what 21 those responses were. 22 Commissioner Baez. 23 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Thank you, Madam 24 Chair. 25 Myrna, thank you very much for your 13 1 concerns and I was listening when you were talking 2 about the resident up there. I always been saying 3 that. I always for seven years that I've been here 4 I always been saying that the resident needs to be 5 having communication with everything we do. That's 6 first. 7 Second of all, with the boiler 8 operation, we do have a new chief of operations that 9 came on board. He has a lot of experience and a lot 10 of things are going to change now. 11 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you, 12 Commissioner Baez. 13 Just to closeout, Mrs. Brown, I am 14 just going to say Mr. E.D. just respond to who we 15 hired and who is new and all that and make sure we 16 get a copy. 17 MR. CIRILO: Absolutely. 18 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Next speaker, 19 Ms. Viola Thomas. Is Ms. Viola Thomas here, Katia? 20 MS. OLIVEIRA: No. 21 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Our next 22 speaker Ms. Viola is not here. 23 Barrett Young from 224 Sussex Avenue. 24 Okay, I think that they are not present. 25 That concludes the items for 14 1 approval -- that concludes our speakers. 2 We would like to go now to items for 3 approval. 4 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Commissioner 5 Gonzalez. 6 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Yes, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: I know Marvin 8 Bowman was here and I thought Katia was going to 9 check to see if he was on the list because he told 10 me he was. He was in my office last week. He told 11 me he was and he's pretty familiar with the policy. 12 Did you check? 13 MS. OLIVEIRA: They haven't responded 14 to me yet. 15 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Excuse me, 16 Commissioner, Executive Director. 17 MR. CIRILO: Yes, Madam Chair, I 18 believe we just checked. 19 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: She said 20 nobody responded to her. 21 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: We are waiting 22 for the E.D.s response to that. 23 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Relax, 24 Commissioner Gonzalez, everything is okay. We just 25 want to find out. I am just telling you. I am 15 1 telling you that the man told me last week. 2 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Commissioner, 3 we know. I know what's going on. 4 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Just relax. 5 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: We know what is 6 going on. 7 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: What is going 8 on? 9 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: I know what is 10 going on with the speaker. We are waiting for the 11 Executive Director to let us know. There is a 12 process for speakers. 13 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: You were 14 moving onto the next resolution. 15 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: He's not on the 16 list to speak. Director. 17 MR. CIRILO: Thank you, Madam Chair. 18 That is correct, we don't have the speaker on the 19 list. We are waiting from IT to check to see if any 20 submissions were sent via the website. We don't 21 have any information as of now. 22 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you. 23 Until we get that response and, of course, I would 24 like to now move to items for approval. 25 Director. 16 1 MR. CIRILO: Madam Chair, would you 2 entertain a motion and a second on the October Board 3 report. 4 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: For the October 5 Board report I will move it. 6 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: I'm second. 7 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Director, we 8 have a mover and a second. 9 MR. CIRILO: Madam Chair, Commissioner 10 Council. 11 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: Yes. 12 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Muhammad. 13 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Yes. 14 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Baez. 15 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Yes. 16 MR. CIRILO: Chairwoman Gonzalez. 17 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Yes. 18 MR. CIRILO: Motion passes. 19 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Commissioner Haqq 20 is here. 21 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Director, can 22 you please acknowledge the Commissioner that walked 23 in. 24 MR. CIRILO: For the record, Madam 25 Chair, Commissioner Haqq has joined us. It is 17 1 5:23 p.m. 2 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you, 3 welcome. We were in the middle of voting approvals. 4 Could we go to the October Board 5 transcripts please, approval for Board transcripts. 6 Could I have a motion, please. 7 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: Motion. 8 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: I will second 9 it. 10 MR. CIRILO: Madam Chair, on the 11 motion. 12 Commissioner Council. 13 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: Yes. 14 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Haqq. 15 COMMISSIONER HAQQ: Yes. 16 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Muhammad. 17 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Yes. 18 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Baez. 19 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Yes. 20 MR. CIRILO: Chairwoman Gonzalez. 21 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Yes. 22 MR. CIRILO: Motion passes. 23 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: I just want to 24 ask the E.D. a question. Do we want to go through 25 the audit report first or resolutions? 18 1 MR. CIRILO: Audit. 2 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: For everyone 3 present, we are going to have a presentation from 4 our auditors before we go into the voting items. 5 Director. 6 MR. CIRILO: Yes, Madam Chair. 7 Mr. Moolayil, would you like to introduce Mr. 8 Larson. 9 MR. MOOLAYIL: This is for the fiscal 10 compliance audit for the fiscal year ending 11 December 31, 2021. Pursuant to the local finance 12 Newark Housing Authority is required to have an 13 audit performed by a CPA firm if you have spent 14 seven hundred thousand or more in Federal funds 15 during the fiscal year, you must complete and submit 16 what's called a single audit. So our agency if you 17 go through that is 164.5 million dollars we spent in 18 Federal funds during the fiscal year 2021. 19 Richard Larson is the auditor from 20 Novogradac and Company. He performed the audit 21 report. He will present the report now. 22 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you. 23 MR. LARSON: Good evening, 24 Commissioners. It is a pleasure to be here. Thank 25 you for having me here again. So I'll briefly take 19 1 you through three audit reports in the packet. I 2 will be talking about them real quick and talk about 3 the finances of the Authority. So this is the audit 4 for the fiscal year ending December 31, 2021. So 5 the first report we have is our independent 6 auditor's report on the financial statements of the 7 Authority and we give the Authority what is called 8 an unmodified opinion on their financial statements 9 and that's the highest level of assurance we can 10 give as auditors. Basically, we're saying the 11 financial statements that are presented in the 12 package present fairly their financial position. So 13 that is a fantastic outcome, but nonetheless it is 14 the outcome I am sure everyone expected to get, but 15 nonetheless it is good to hear. 16 There's also an audit in accordance 17 with Government auditing standards in the packet 18 that is required by New Jersey law and Federal law 19 to have an audit in accordance with government 20 auditing standards and that's where we test the 21 Authority's internal control structure over 22 financial reporting. When I talk about internal 23 control, what are the safeguards that the Authority 24 has in place to safeguard the Authority's assets. 25 So we will test your cash disbursements and cash 20 1 receipts and procurement. We read the minutes to 2 your meetings and if the Board passes a resolution 3 to hire a certain contractor at a certain rate or 4 certain employee at a certain rate, we will actually 5 go and make sure that the staff follow through with 6 your Board resolutions. Now, we don't test a 7 hundred percent of the transactions at the 8 Authority, but we will do a representative sample. 9 With our government auditing standards report, we 10 give the highest level of assurance there as well. 11 Nothing came to our attention that is required to be 12 reported to, you know, weaknesses in internal 13 control. That is all also the highest level of 14 assurance and it is a very positive outcome as well. 15 Finally, the last report is our report 16 in accordance with the Uniform Guidance which is 17 Federal law and because as Sam mentioned the 18 Authority has in excess of seven hundred fifty 19 thousand dollars of Federal expenditures of Federal 20 grant money, the Federal Government requires the 21 Housing Authority to have an audit to make sure you 22 spent that money in accordance with all those 23 regulations and strings that they put on that money, 24 all the strings attached to that money. So we 25 tested for compliance hundreds of compliance 21 1 requirements on how you spend the money. We gave 2 the Authority an unmodified opinion on compliance 3 which is the highest level of assurance that we can 4 give as auditors. We had no findings and no issues. 5 So that is also a very, very positive outcome. We 6 audit about seventy housing authorities across the 7 country. It is a very specialized practice. 8 Usually we do have findings with housing authorities 9 this big. Probably about fifty percent of housing 10 authorities we do have issues of non-compliance so 11 that is very, very positive. The three reports we 12 did did not have any findings or issues that needed 13 to be reported. So you should be happy with that. 14 As far as finances go with the 15 Authority, when I talk to Board members, you know, 16 housing authorities by their nature have millions 17 and millions and millions of dollars of equity and 18 the Housing Authority here has a hundred million 19 dollars of assets. However, you can't pay your 20 payroll with just any assets. A lot of assets here 21 at the Authority are tied up in buildings and sticks 22 and bricks. You need to have liquidity which is 23 basically cash and liquid assets to do that. So our 24 finances have gotten a little better from the prior 25 fiscal year 2020 to the tune of about a half million 22 1 dollars, but our reserves are still -- we really 2 still don't have any operating reserves. When we 3 talk about operating reserves, current assets and 4 your current liabilities. The Housing Authority 5 this size should probably have sixteen million 6 dollars of reserves. We really don't have that yet, 7 but we are improving from '19 to '20 and to '21 8 finances has been controlling expenses and we have 9 done a nice job actually generating additional 10 revenues. 11 Our P and L if you look at it, if you 12 add back depreciation expense and we have about 13 twenty-four million dollars in depreciation. I will 14 just -- you know what happens, the Housing Authority 15 gets capital grants and they can purchase assets so 16 depreciation is not really an out-of-pocket expense 17 for us. So I always add that back so when you add 18 back depreciation expense, you have about a fourteen 19 million dollar profit in 2021 which we were able to 20 use to pay down debt, that EPC debt and we are able 21 to use it to purchase additional fixed assets above 22 our capital grant. So the P and L actually looks 23 pretty good. The finances are improving. They are 24 not there yet, you know, we really need to build our 25 reserves and continue to watch our expenses and 23 1 generate additional revenue, but I think it's a 2 positive report as far as no findings and in an 3 improving financial condition. 4 If anybody has any questions, I'd love 5 to take them now or I know this is a lot to take. I 6 work for the Board so you can e-mail me any 7 questions that you may have after you review the 8 financial statements. If you have any concerns for 9 the 2022 audit, you can relay that to me and I can 10 incorporate that in my audit plan for 2022. It is 11 routine to do that. 12 MR. CIRILO: Madam Chair, through you 13 if it is okay. 14 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Yes. 15 MR. CIRILO: I do want to make an 16 announcement. It is official at this point we have 17 been approved by the United States Department of 18 Housing and Urban Development to convert a thousand 19 and fifty units of public housing to the Section 8 20 project based platform through a RAD conversion. So 21 it is official, we are going to have an announcement 22 in the next few weeks. It's the largest RAD deal in 23 the State of New Jersey and it is one of the largest 24 in the country. So we have worked very, very hard 25 the last three years to preserve, preserve public 24 1 housing, preserve affordable housing in the form of 2 a thousand fifty units at four sites. 3 My first question to the presenter, 4 what kind of impact would that have on the finances 5 of the Authority, what is his opinion on that 6 long-term or short-term and I will follow up with 7 two additional questions of some significant 8 financial transactions that took place this year. 9 MR. LARSON: So I am a very big 10 proponent of the Rental Assistance Demonstration 11 program and I think now more than ever I've been 12 around for a while doing public housing authority 13 audits and I remember during the Obama 14 administration when Congress flipped and they had a 15 Republican Congress, Democratic President. You had 16 a lot of cutbacks to the public housing program. 17 You had sequestration. We had recapture of public 18 housing funds. So that was a very tough time. 19 The last several years have been very 20 good for public housing, but I see with Congress 21 changing again my experience is that I do see public 22 cutbacks to the public housing program coming. So 23 by converting to RAD you are getting out of that 24 public housing program when your subsidy is high so 25 your RAD rents would be higher because you are 25 1 getting out now in the RAD rents which the public 2 housing subsidy was high. So I think the timing is 3 impeccable. I think it locks in. You will be able 4 to improve your public housing. That's part of the 5 RAD program. You have to take care of all your 6 capital needs now and then also project out capital 7 needs over the next twenty years and you have to be 8 able to fund those. You are able to do that with 9 private capital or FHA loans or what have you so I 10 think that is a great decision that the Board made 11 especially now with Congress changing. 12 MR. CIRILO: Thank you, Madam Chair. 13 And one more question. Just for the sake of the 14 meeting. I will just keep it short. We were able 15 to present to the Board the option of disposing of 16 some assets to pay for a liability of about eleven 17 million dollars plus in the form of utility bills. 18 Do you see that being impactful in the incoming year 19 in terms of our financial position. 20 MR. LARSON: Absolutely. So you have 21 utility bills that are really current liabilities. 22 Some we have reclassified as long-term, but you are 23 taking an asset that is non-liquid, selling it, 24 liquidating it and paying off these liabilities. 25 So, yes, that absolutely that helps your ratios that 26 1 I was talking about, your working capital and your 2 liquidity. Yeah, I am assuming you are getting a 3 good deal for what you're selling and you are 4 getting market value and you are paying off those 5 liabilities and that will help you with your RAD 6 deal, your financing, it will. Anybody lending you 7 money is going to look on your financials a lot 8 better, a lot more positive. 9 MR. CIRILO: Thank you, Madam Chair. 10 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: That was your 11 last comment, Director? 12 MR. CIRILO: Yes. 13 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Commissioners, 14 any questions, please? 15 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Yes, I do, 16 Commissioner Muhammad. How are you? 17 MR. LARSON: Good. 18 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Thanks for 19 printing a little bigger. He brought up the RAD 20 situation so I'm going to ask the question. When 21 those sites go into RAD which is not really under 22 the Newark Housing Authority, they are under the 23 corporation that is actually running the RAD. Do we 24 still -- we don't get the income, the Housing 25 Authority still don't get income for those 27 1 properties. I thought it stays with the 2 corporation. 3 MR. LARSON: So it depends how it is 4 structured. So a lot of housing authorities will 5 still perform management services. They will 6 perform the development services and so forth. So 7 some housing authorities say, you know what, we are 8 going to turn it over to a private developer, let 9 him run it and let him pay us a fee, maybe a land 10 lease fee, rents, whatever it may be. Some housing 11 authorities say no, we are going to run this site 12 ourselves. We will do the management. So you are 13 going to charge that entity for property management 14 services, development services or whatever it may 15 be. 16 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: You wouldn't 17 know. 18 MR. LARSON: I am not exactly sure 19 what this deal is. 20 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: If I remember 21 they are separate entities, separate L.L.C.s so if 22 they are separate L.L.C.s and they are becoming 23 self-contained, how would they benefit us? You are 24 saying it is going to benefit us because you are 25 taking some of your best properties are going into 28 1 RAD, not our worst properties. Some of our best 2 properties are going into RAD. So what I'm saying 3 is I guess the E.D. would know that, but he brought 4 it up, but my understanding from what I was being 5 taught about RAD is that it was a separate L.L.C. or 6 separate Board because I remember there was a Board 7 member that used to be on here, Costa. The E.D. 8 said she is going to be on that Board. They are 9 going to have their own Board, their own managers. 10 People told me they went out already and asked 11 certain people to come work for them. So I don't 12 know why we are talking about that if it don't -- if 13 it is not a plus on the housing authority situation 14 and you can't answer that question. 15 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Could I have 16 the E.D. answer that question. 17 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner, thank you 18 for that line of questioning. RAD is a very 19 sophisticated real estate transaction. It is why 20 our professional can tell you a lot of housing 21 authorities shy away from it even though it has 22 significant financial benefits. If you convert, to 23 your question, the properties we mentioned are owned 24 by you, you, yourself, Alif Commissioner Muhammad, 25 Commissioner Council, this Board owns those 29 1 properties. You create an L.L.C., correct, you 2 created an L.L.C. and you transfer ownership to that 3 from the public housing program to that L.L.C. which 4 is owned by this Board. So there is three separate 5 L.L.C.s that were created. Those buildings were not 6 sold. Those buildings were not sold. They are 7 owned by the Housing Authority. 8 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: I understand 9 that. 10 MR. CIRILO: The revenue that comes in 11 from the operation of those buildings goes back to 12 the Housing Authority. I met with the bargaining 13 units and I was part of the structure that was 14 decided on early on which was to make sure that 15 everyone's employment was safeguarded, everyone's 16 health insurance was safeguarded and all those 17 revenues that come back come back to the Housing 18 Authority. 19 There is an entity that you mentioned, 20 a third party entity which is an entity that was 21 created to sign-off on the cyclical contracting, 22 however, the operating revenue is not going to the 23 entity, it is going back to the property under the 24 existing mathematics. As I mentioned, it's a very 25 complicated structure. Like I can certainly make a 30 1 presentation before the Board again. We've done 2 that before so that you can rest assure that at the 3 end of the day it is benefiting to the residents and 4 to the Housing Authority. 5 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Only reason 6 why I spoke on it because you brought it up. 7 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: I can't see you 8 from here, go ahead. Go ahead, Commissioner Alif. 9 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: The only 10 reason why I brought it up this is not a RAD 11 meeting. I got some questions here. 12 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: And that is 13 exactly what I was going to say, Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: He interjected 15 it and the gentleman said this is positive so I'm 16 like okay, great. 17 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: It is so you 18 did bring up the RAD Director and I am going -- I 19 know that I've gotten a lot of calls today over RAD, 20 good news, but we do have three Commissioners on the 21 Board that weren't here and we got to make sure that 22 they get a meeting and maybe all of us. We can call 23 a special meeting so that we can get an update on 24 RAD because it's been like two years or so that we 25 voted on it. You know, Commissioner Alif, you were 31 1 here and you were part of that as well, but we have 2 to be mindful of our new Commissioners so I was 3 going to agree with you on that requesting a RAD 4 meeting so if no more questions for Mike. 5 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: I was just 6 starting. 7 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Okay, second 8 question, please. Let's keep it on the audit, thank 9 you. 10 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Come on now, I 11 just started. Okay, this has to stop. On the page 12 where it says capital assets and long-term debt 13 activity. Our total capital assets are minus four 14 million dollars, why? 15 MR. LARSON: What page are you looking 16 at? 17 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Page ten. 18 MR. LARSON: So I think what you are 19 looking at is management discussion and analysis. 20 So we are comparing the 2020 fixed assets to 2021 21 and then the change is in the third column. So what 22 happens is the subtotal, your capital assets went up 23 twenty million dollars from six hundred 24 seventy-three million in capital assets to six 25 hundred ninety-three. However, what you do with 32 1 capital assets is you depreciate them over their 2 useful life and I'm trying not to talk like an 3 accountant and put everybody to sleep. 4 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Please do. 5 MR. LARSON: So what happens is then 6 we charge -- although we purchased twenty million 7 dollars, we invested twenty million dollars into 8 Housing Authority property. We wrote off 9 twenty-four million in depreciation expense so that 10 is a noncash charge and so that's why your net fixed 11 assets went down four million dollars. Your net 12 capital assets went down four. 13 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Thank you. 14 On page twelve and page thirteen. So 15 we take the tenant security as a deposit and then on 16 the next page we take it as a liability because it 17 is really not our money, right? 18 MR. LARSON: That's right. 19 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: So that is the 20 way you set it up, you take it as an asset and then 21 you come back and take it back out? 22 MR. LARSON: Right. It's held in 23 escrow for tenants. 24 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Because it is 25 not our money. 33 1 Protective services it says 9.5 2 million, where did we spend that at? 3 MR. LARSON: Sam could possibly answer 4 that question where. Most of that is usually 5 security and maintenance for security and those type 6 of things. 7 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: I don't think 8 we spent that kind of money last year. 9 MR. LARSON: Usually salaries. 10 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: So Sam, 11 9.5 million, what is that? Also, Sam, before you 12 start is this included in some of the joint venture 13 security or this is just our security? 14 MR. MOOLAYIL: Public housing. 15 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Where did we 16 spend 9.56, nine and a half million dollars at? 17 MR. MOOLAYIL: That's correct. We 18 spent it in public housing. You can go to the 19 detail. We spend about 8.3 million, that's 20 including the staffing, the secretary staff and 21 security contract. 22 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: So you spent 23 8.3. 24 MR. MOOLAYIL: If you go to page 25 number sixty-four, you can see the total protective 34 1 services there broken down by program and projects. 2 MR. LARSON: 8.3 million. 3 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: I just got my 4 cataracts fixed on one side and it still ain't 5 helping me. Maybe they have to fix both sides. 6 MR. LARSON: These are small sketches. 7 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: I can't see 8 it. Remember, I always complain about that. I'm 9 the guy that says can you make it larger. I need to 10 know, Sam, where we spent that kind of money at. 11 Next question on page fifteen, you 12 said we have a net cash provided by operating -- we 13 have net cash of thirty-three million dollars. 14 MR. LARSON: So what happens is the 15 operations -- it depends on when you pay your bills, 16 when you collect your money. So, yes, so the 17 operations generated thirty-three million dollars. 18 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Net. 19 MR. LARSON: Net, that's right. And 20 then we had five hundred thousand in casualty losses 21 and then we spent eighteen million net in capital 22 and related financing activities. So our cash 23 position did increase in the end. You see down 24 below 14.8 million dollars. The cash balance did 25 increase, but also our liability balance did 35 1 increase. So a lot of it is timing when you pay 2 your bills. 3 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: In other 4 words, we don't really have thirty-three million 5 dollars. 6 MR. LARSON: So if you look, that's a 7 great question and if you go back to page twelve and 8 thirteen so you can see the top of page twelve you 9 have thirty-nine million dollars in cash and current 10 assets and this is what I was talking about before. 11 We had current assets of forty-eight million dollars 12 which means that's forty-eight million that you are 13 expected to collect and liquidate over the next 14 year. It is current. But you have current 15 liabilities of fifty million dollars on the next 16 page. 17 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: What I am 18 trying to say is that we don't have thirty-three 19 million dollars. 20 MR. LARSON: No, that cash is really 21 going to be used to pay the current liabilities, 22 yes. So for every one dollar of current asset you 23 have one dollar of current liability. 24 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Why do Branch 25 Brook Housing always show up on our report? I mean 36 1 because I know that a lot of properties we still 2 own. I mean matter of fact all the properties we 3 have owned them we are in a joint venture with them 4 or renting them, but why does this particular 5 project which is a very good project. They say it's 6 the best senior citizen. 7 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: I'm sorry, 8 Director, I just wanted to know what page you were 9 on asking that question. 10 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Page 11 seventeen. 12 MR. LARSON: So Branch Brook is 13 controlled by the Housing Authority so it meets the 14 definition of inclusion in our financial statements. 15 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: So we get 16 money from there, we get income from there? 17 MR. LARSON: So it's its own project. 18 So it has its own set of financials. I don't know 19 off the top of my head if we perform management 20 services. 21 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: I don't think 22 we get any money from it. We own Prudential Center 23 too, but we can't get a seat in it. The Housing 24 Authority owns Prudential Center, but we don't 25 get -- he got our seats so you know what I am saying 37 1 is do we get any money from them because why would 2 it show up? None of the other joint ventures of the 3 other projects show up, why do this show up? 4 MR. LARSON: Branch Brook is actually 5 audited by another auditor. We take that audit and 6 bring it in. I am not sure of the relationship, but 7 we do control it so accounting rules require us to 8 bring it into your financials. 9 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Sam, could you 10 find out about that question for me. You don't have 11 to do it now. I just need to know because I'm 12 saying they show up and it is a great building, but 13 I don't know if we benefit from it financially. We 14 might benefit as an asset, but financially are we 15 benefiting from it? 16 MR. MOOLAYIL: Richard mentioned it is 17 an accounting. It is a blended component unit. It 18 is a component unit of the Housing Authority owned 19 by the Housing Authority. 20 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Do we get any 21 money from it? 22 MR. MOOLAYIL: Yes, we have accounts 23 set up. 24 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Let me know 25 how much money we get a year from it, okay, not now. 38 1 MR. CIRILO: Sam, the question is do 2 we get any money from Branch Brook. 3 MR. MOOLAYIL: This is the thing. 4 This is managed by a private entity. So Hillcrest 5 Management manages the property so any excess money 6 they put it into NHA controlled account, yes, we do 7 have an account. 8 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Let me know 9 how much money we get from them. Explain to me the 10 restricted. 11 MR. CIRILO: Madam Chair, can I answer 12 that question. 13 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Yes. 14 MR. CIRILO: Can I address that 15 question, Mr. Moolayil. So Branch Brook is a 16 Section 8 housing property operated by its own Board 17 with its own finances and the Board is appointed by 18 the Housing Authority. The finances we don't per se 19 get money from Branch Brook, but there is money at 20 Branch Brook that is used to operate the property. 21 If we can share a copy of their audit to show you 22 what kind of financial condition it is. It is 23 similar to the RAD properties that we were speaking 24 about. We control them and we own them. So we can 25 make a budget, you know, the budget and the audit 39 1 available for the Board so that you can see. Now, 2 we don't collect money per se like every month we 3 don't get money and I think that's what you were 4 referring to. 5 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Yes, E.D. 6 See, the real situation for me is yes, the asset is 7 very important, but are we benefiting. It is nice 8 to say we benefit to say we have a nice asset, but 9 if we are not getting any resources from it, you 10 know, I'd just like to find out what the situation 11 is. 12 Can I go to the next question? 13 Because I seen it I'm like we have other properties, 14 but they say that's the best senior. 15 MR. CIRILO: We have a lot of 16 properties like that, Commissioner, we have like ten 17 properties. 18 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Also, you said 19 that we appoint the Board. 20 MR. CIRILO: Yes, the Housing 21 Authority appoints the Board. 22 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: I have been 23 here three and a half years. I don't know anything 24 about an appointment. It was before me. 25 MR. CIRILO: The Board members are 40 1 appointed by the Housing Authority Director and by 2 the CFO, but mostly the Housing Authority. 3 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: You can answer 4 me later. You mean you appoint them? 5 MR. CIRILO: Yes, we do. 6 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: That is easy. 7 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Commissioner, 8 I'm just going to ask you -- let's just -- 9 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Let me tell 10 you what the problem is, Commissioner Gonzalez. We 11 can get this in one week. We got this in one week. 12 You see what I am saying. It is not fair. Excuse 13 me, we only get this in one week. This is not fair. 14 It happens every year. 15 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: That is what I 16 am asking for a budget meeting. This is not a 17 budget meeting. 18 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: You gave me 19 this. I went through it. I am going to ask my 20 questions. You are not going to stop me from 21 asking. I am responsible for voting on this. I am 22 going to answer my questions and this gentleman has 23 always been humble and kind enough even last year he 24 made the letters big. Let me ask questions. 25 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Stop yelling. 41 1 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: You keep 2 interrupting me. You making all kinds of sounds 3 over there. It is going over the sounds. You are 4 making all kind of um, um, um like you're a 5 cheerleader or something like that. 6 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: That's so 7 disrespectful, Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: It is 9 disrespectful you talking while I am talking. Let 10 me finish what I am doing, please. 11 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: This is not a 12 financial meeting. If you want more questions, you 13 are asking questions, we are taking notes. If we 14 have more questions or especially you, we will 15 answer, but we have items on the agenda. 16 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: We should hold 17 up voting on this until I can ask my questions. We 18 should hold up voting on this. 19 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: We don't have 20 to. You can defer, you cannot vote and I see you 21 have more questions and I have questions myself, but 22 we don't want to discuss -- we don't want to make 23 this into a budget financial meeting. 24 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: You want me to 25 vote on it? 42 1 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: I'm not asking 2 you -- 3 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: You presented 4 it in front of me. You want me to vote on it. You 5 are right, it is my option, but I am saying don't 6 give it to me in one week and then I sit down on my 7 time, on my time because I work for myself and read 8 this and take my time and read this and then I got 9 somebody in here to answer, don't want to answer 10 questions so what I am saying is I have some more 11 questions and I want to ask them. 12 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Commissioner 13 Council, I see you raised your hand. 14 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Commissioner 15 Council has nothing to do with this conversation. 16 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: Madam Chair. 17 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Let me finish 18 my questions, that's all. 19 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Commissioner 20 Council, please. 21 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: Madam Chair, 22 just respectfully I think we have to present a more 23 professional kind of attitude to what is happening 24 here at the meeting. One, in terms of the decorum 25 even between the Chair and the Commissioners, right, 43 1 we have to respect the fact that there is a 2 President here operating a meeting. So in giving 3 that reference we also have to recognize and realize 4 that, you know, Commissioner Muhammad does have 5 questions and has the right to answer questions, but 6 we also have to realize that there is a difference 7 between a budget hearing and a compliance audit. So 8 the compliance audit is to ensure the organizational 9 health of the Housing Authority based on an audit 10 that was produced through the consultant that we 11 have here to look at the financial health of the 12 organization. So in doing that, the question 13 ultimately just should have been asked, you know, if 14 there were no findings then what are the 15 recommendations based on the consultant's piece of 16 where we are in terms of becoming more healthier as 17 an organization, things that we need to look at and 18 what we need to do. But pinpointing specific dollar 19 amounts and information to an auditor that is just 20 designed to look at the fiscal health is something 21 that we should be asking on the budgetary side. So 22 I just want us to be clear about what's happening 23 and then, you know, not take the reference away from 24 Commissioner Muhammad who felt like he has the 25 opportunity to go over, consume all the 44 1 documentation and information which we all have as 2 Commissioners to read it, but I just want us to 3 understand our focus and movement as we are moving 4 throughout this meeting and then to understand that 5 we have to be respectful, you know, of each other. 6 We can agree to disagree, but we have to realize 7 that folks are here in the presence of the meeting. 8 They need to understand and they need to know the 9 fiscal health of this organization moving forward 10 with all of the things happening and going on, but 11 also there is other business that needs to be 12 handled. So we just want to be mindful of that. So 13 I don't mind the Commissioner asking questions, but, 14 one, it is not fair to the auditor because we are 15 going to have to keep injecting the Chief Financial 16 Officer into this conversation which should have 17 happened at the budget meeting, pre-budget meeting 18 going over the expensive movement of dollars and 19 funds as relates to the organization so I just want 20 to make note of that. 21 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Commissioner 23 Council, that's great. You got it last week just 24 like me, three days ago. Now, we did a budget last 25 month it was this big. I sat down for two hours 45 1 with Sam and went over this. If I would have got 2 this a month ago or whatever, I would have the 3 opportunity. So what I am saying is it has to be 4 fair, again, let people understand. When we vote on 5 this, we are Commissioners responsible civilly and 6 criminally about what we doing here. So when you 7 give me something three or four days before, I'm 8 going to read it. So if you would have gave it to 9 me with the budget, I would have sat down with Sam 10 and them and got my answers so I have one more 11 question to ask, sir. 12 The CARES Act reserves on page 13 twenty-seven. I appreciate you too Pastor, I just 14 want to say that. The CARES Act reserve. This is 15 restricted deposit. Do you know what that is, sir? 16 MR. LARSON: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Could you 18 explain it to me? 19 MR. LARSON: So what happens is the 20 Authority received funds from Coronavirus CARES Act 21 grant. So the Authority has a certain time frame 22 where they can spend it on allowable expenses. 23 Anything you don't spend goes into restricted cash 24 as of year end and then you spend it the following 25 year and so that is why it is restricted. The money 46 1 came in, but it is restricted for the program that 2 it came in and to be spent on eligible CARES Act 3 expenses. 4 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Thank you so 5 much, sir, and I didn't mean to put you on the spot. 6 I just got this, Rich, so we have to do a little 7 better managing around here where the Commissioners 8 can get something where we can read and ask 9 questions, but, Buddy, I am going to ask questions 10 because this could be -- I could be responsible 11 civilly and criminally. 12 Thank you, Commissioner Gonzalez, I'm 13 done. 14 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you, 15 Commissioner Muhammad and Commissioner Council. I 16 do have a question. What date did you complete your 17 audit report for us? 18 MR. LARSON: So -- 19 MR. CIRILO: November 4, 2022. We 20 gave this to the Board ten days ago. 21 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: You didn't get 22 this to the Board. We got this the other day. 23 MR. CIRILO: Ten days ago, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: We got this 25 last Thursday. 47 1 MR. CIRILO: You got your packet on 2 Monday, ten days ago. 3 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Thursday. 4 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you. 5 Just like I said, if anyone has any questions 6 regarding the budget, the audit, you are always 7 available to us and so is Sam so thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: Madam Chair, I 9 just want, again, to talk about, one, if you could 10 just explain the financial health of the 11 organization and then talk about and discuss 12 recommendations outside of the instance not having 13 any findings from the documentation and information 14 that we read. That there were no findings and the 15 programmatic end and some of the other financial 16 pieces, but if you can talk about some of the 17 recommendations for the organization moving forward. 18 MR. LARSON: So you are correct, 19 Commissioner, so we did a compliance audit. We did 20 a financial audit, compliance audit. Really 21 everything came out unmodified opinions, highest 22 level of assurance, no findings and no issues. 23 Really a fantastic outcome. 24 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Thank you, 25 Commissioner. 48 1 MR. LARSON: Financially, there were 2 some challenges here. I am sure that's not news to 3 everybody. The recommendation is to continue to try 4 to find creative ways to generate additional 5 revenues and cut expenses. I mean cutting expenses 6 is very hard. Your largest expense is really 7 salaries and contract cost and maintenance of your 8 buildings and those costs are going up every day. 9 We all know what inflation is. So that is it, just 10 keep an eye on expenses trying to monitor expenses, 11 trying to keep a cap on them and generate any 12 additional revenues. Sam does a great job of 13 finding and getting the CARES Act money in here and 14 getting additional grants. Selling I think it was a 15 piece of property to payoff liabilities I thought 16 was a smart move. Anything we can do to increase 17 our liquidity because our liquidity ratio is upside 18 down and when I talk about liquidity, it's a fancy 19 word for what's your ability to pay bills as they 20 become due. Right now we are a little bit upside 21 down. We have gotten better. The last couple years 22 it's gotten better. In 2020 when I did the audit 23 report it was -- we were in worse shape so now we 24 are in better shape. It would be nice if we can get 25 a little better little quicker, but it is a tough 49 1 economy and really that's the toughest thing right 2 now is just really putting a cap on expenses. 3 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you. If 4 no more questions, I want to thank you for the 5 recommendations and I believe that's what we wanted 6 to look at especially our properties and how to make 7 those payments on the utilities just like you 8 started your presentation. So thank you so much. 9 MR. LARSON: Thank you and you do have 10 a fantastic staff here to get a unmodified opinions 11 with no findings with a housing authority this size 12 is really an accomplishment. So I would be remiss 13 if I didn't put out a congratulations to them so 14 thank you. 15 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you. 16 So I'm going to deviate from our 17 regular agenda. I was just notified earlier that 18 Mr. Marvin Bowman did request to speak and 19 unfortunately it had gone to our website so we are 20 going to acknowledge Mr. Bowman to come up and 21 speak. You have five minutes, sir. 22 MR. BOWMAN: After that I might be a 23 little scared to speak. 24 MR. CIRILO: It is okay, please. 25 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: It is okay, 50 1 Mr. Bowman. That is why we are trying to get your 2 attention. 3 MR. BOWMAN: Thank you. My name is 4 Marvin Bowman and we have a few new Commissioners. 5 Marvin Bowman, nice to see you guys and to everyone 6 else here. Welcome back, Mr. Foster. 7 MR. FOSTER: Thank you. 8 MR. BOWMAN: Now, y'all got me a 9 little nervous. I wanted to talk about 10 accountability and I'm going to start when an agency 11 fails seven out of eight properties that is bad. 12 That is bad. You had a director of operations or 13 whatever the title was. You have a consultant that 14 thought that stripping and waxing floors was going 15 to pass inspections. Didn't work. So everybody has 16 to take responsibility for what happens in a housing 17 authority from the Commissioners on down. 18 Mr. Cirilo went down to Newark 19 Municipal Council and I felt he took a beating. He 20 shouldn't have took that beating alone. He runs the 21 agency, but he has people in position in my opinion 22 that were sent from the City and they run key 23 positions in this agency. So he shouldn't have been 24 the only one answering questions. He's the head, I 25 get it, but the people who run different departments 51 1 we have friends, families, nepotism, people not 2 qualified in positions running this agency backwards 3 and guess what, the Commissioners that was here 4 before let it happen. You guys let it happen. So 5 me and Victor Cirilo we done had conversations and 6 it wasn't all pleasant, but let's hold everybody 7 accountable and then I understand you renew 8 contracts for a consultant and you fail. What's the 9 point. What does it take to be a consultant here? 10 Where is the portfolio? Where is your prior 11 experience? Where is your prior -- that said I did 12 this consulting for eight years, ten years. Then 13 there is questions about other people that may be 14 consultants here. Do you guys get to know who the 15 consultants are, who brings in consultants, who is 16 on payroll, who is not on payroll and how did you 17 get fast tracked to be a consultant. I fixed a 18 couple paint jobs, lights, can I be a consultant? 19 I'm retired, could I come back or is it political, 20 you know. As a consultant what is the role. Is it 21 running day-to-day operations dealing with the 22 workers in the field or consulting to the Executive 23 Director or whoever they consult with. They should 24 not be telling people what work to do and not to do. 25 You are a consultant. Consult with the people that 52 1 hired you to consult. Not to run the day-to-day 2 operation. If a person ain't qualified for a 3 position, remove them. This ain't about who helped 4 you at election time or all that stuff. This is 5 about the quality for the residents of the Newark 6 Housing Authority. 7 To the Commissioners, at one point you 8 guys went after my job and everybody else in 617 job 9 until Mr. Muhammad said you are putting people on 10 the street that live and work in this City and it 11 was changed. Money was found for us to stay. But 12 we shouldn't have to face that uncertainty when it's 13 so much other crap going on and you guys see it 14 firsthand. If you getting stuff at the last minute 15 you shouldn't be giving money away. The decisions 16 you make stay for a long time. When you are gone, 17 the decision is still there so when it comes to 18 somebody's job, residents and stuff like that, take 19 it into real consideration and don't just try to put 20 everything on Mr. Cirilo when we got directors of X, 21 Y, Z and basically all of them came from the City. 22 So I didn't like what happened. Whether you -- when 23 I looked at it, it is like why is he taking the 24 blame. Why isn't somebody else answering the 25 questions of certain situations. The inspection 53 1 failed, who was running this, but thanks. Maybe 2 Mr. Foster can bring it back in line and get us out 3 of this bad situation. So thank you very much for 4 allowing me to speak. 5 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Madam Chair. 6 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you, Mr. 7 Bowman. 8 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Mr. Bowman, thank 9 you so much and I want to ask you just one question. 10 I wanted to know because I am pretty much the oldest 11 one in this position right here and when mentioned 12 we let it ride people being upside down and I would 13 like to get together with you because I would like 14 to know you and I having a conversation because 15 really I don't agree with that and thank you for 16 looking out for the Chairman because it's true, he's 17 not by himself over here. He have a lot of people 18 supposed to back him up, but like you said, I have 19 been here for eight years almost and maybe we didn't 20 do it right, but my question to you is I'd like to 21 get with you, you and I together because I really 22 want to know who they are. 23 MR. BOWMAN: Let's not me and you get 24 together. Let others get together. That way 25 everybody, but we can have an open conversation so 54 1 me and you ain't making no deals and I am not being 2 your friend. I am going to say the truth. 3 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: I like to hear 5 that, thank you. 6 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Mr. Bowman, 7 thank you so much for your comments and we 8 respect -- 9 MR. BOWMAN: I am going to sit down. 10 Anybody have anything to inject, I'm still here. 11 I'm not leaving. 12 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you. 13 MR. BOWMAN: But Mr. Cirilo, you 14 shouldn't have been down there by yourself. 15 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: We thank you so 16 much. 17 We are we also are going to break from 18 our regular agenda because there was another speaker 19 who signed up Ms. Felicia Alston and, Director, you 20 are going to put her on the phone. 21 MR. CIRILO: Yes, we apologize, 22 Commissioner. We apologize they came in from the 23 website and I don't know what the issue is, but we 24 will rectify that. Our apologies. 25 MS. SINGLETON: I just want to say my 55 1 name is Felicia Alston Singleton. I am a resident 2 of Newark Housing Authority and it's a shame that 3 the transparency has dropped from the Housing 4 Authority. Where is the meetings that are online? 5 Why do we have to go to a Commissioner's page to now 6 see the meeting. It is about to become wintertime. 7 What happens to the Zoom what happens to the 8 acceptance for people that may not want to come out 9 because COVID numbers are picking up. I don't 10 understand it, Commissioners. Also, I want to say 11 thank you to Mr. Cirilo for bringing back Emanuel 12 Foster. Emanuel and I have had many conversations, 13 many arguments, but we have got it together and I 14 believe Emanuel will get the job done. 15 I would also like to thank Mr. Cirilo 16 for stepping up and helping other families that are 17 in need of homes right now and he stepped up with 18 the City and is now trying to help the Riviera 19 Hotel. 20 Commissioners, we have to get it 21 together. Mr. Bowman said it best. The nepotism 22 that goes on within the Housing Authority, the 23 people that coming over from the City because they 24 are not qualified to do the job. They get dumped 25 off in the Housing Authority. This is ridiculous. 56 1 I don't understand why this is going on. Where is 2 your concern for the residents. Let me tell you 3 something. The power of the Housing Authority is 4 vested in the Board of Commissioners. However, the 5 Commissioners are supposed to take lead from the 6 Executive Director. It states that in your bylaws. 7 It states it in your handbook so I suggest you go 8 read it. It is unacceptable that we have to go on 9 Commissioner Muhammad's page to see the Housing 10 Authority meeting. What are you really are here 11 for, for the residents or are you here to make 12 undercover deals and now we have to travel. Now 13 it's dark time, now it is wintertime, travel out in 14 the cold. COVID numbers are perking up and you took 15 the viewing off of your page off of Facebook and 16 Zoom as well where we can't speak. Unacceptable. 17 Unacceptable. What about your handicap residents? 18 Why is this in-person thing so special. In-person 19 means that you are excluding the very people that 20 have something to say. 21 Now, I also want to say to Mr. Cirilo 22 and to the Board of Commissioners that the City 23 cannot govern and tell you to come to the mic of a 24 City Council meeting. This is a federally funded 25 agency. I need y'all to get that clear and know 57 1 your job and know what you are doing. Because if 2 you are not going to do it right, people are going 3 to go to HUD. We are going to go to the FBI and 4 report it and everyone will come off the Board. You 5 won't have a working Board and they will bring in 6 their own people. Why are City people just like 7 with Eddie Osborne. Why is there a Councilman 8 sitting on the Board of Commissioners when the 9 Housing Authority does business with the City. True 10 conflict of interest. I said before I stand on it 11 and I say it again, unacceptable, unacceptable. You 12 do business with the City. You do swaps with the 13 City. You do exchange money and all kind of stuff. 14 The Housing Authority is the redevelopment agency 15 for the City of Newark. So no City employee should 16 be on there. No City family members should be in 17 there, but still it goes on and everything rise. It 18 stops here. It stops here. I am letting you know, 19 I don't throw a rock in my hand, Commissioners. You 20 know me by now. It's going to stop. If you not 21 going to abide by it, if you are not going to abide 22 by the rules, I am going to ask to remove whoever 23 does not want to roll with it. You are here in the 24 best interest of the residents. You are here to 25 listen to our concerns, listen to what we have to 58 1 say and correct it and if you can't address it, then 2 I don't know why you are there. 3 Get your system right. I signed up to 4 speak. Thank you very much, Ms. Katia and Mr. 5 Cirilo, for allowing me to speak. I signed up to 6 speak and you didn't even get in contact with me 7 which your IT department and his broad self got 8 caught up in some self, but the FBI is in there and 9 looking at y'all. They are looking at y'all. 10 Anything I keep, wire fraud, wiretap, all that is 11 done by the FBI. So if you can't get it right, just 12 know that I'm sending my stuff over on the FBI and 13 one thing they can do. It wasn't by any of you and 14 if you don't like what I'm saying, I advise you to 15 get up out your seat now and be gone because this is 16 how it is going to go. You are going to address the 17 residents. You are going to see what we want. You 18 are going to see what we need and you are going to 19 find the money to fix anything that is wrong with 20 the department and not just getting ready for your 21 REAC inspection or any other inspection. So we have 22 been in COVID for two years, so what, coming up on 23 three years. So what if we fail. 24 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you. 25 MS. SINGLETON: Commissioners should 59 1 know that. 2 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you, 3 Ms. Alston, your time just expired. Thank you so 4 much. 5 MS. SINGLETON: Thank you so much, 6 Chairwoman. 7 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you. 8 Have a great night. Thank you. Thank you so much, 9 everyone. 10 I would like to now, Executive 11 Director, Commissioners, resume to our regular 12 voting agenda. So our first resolution, please, 13 Director. 14 MR. CIRILO: Yes, Madam Chair, the 15 first resolution reads resolution authorizing the 16 Executive Director to execute a Collective 17 Bargaining Agreement between the NHA and Locals 68, 18 68A, 68B and International Union of Operating 19 Engineers for the period of four years from 20 January 1st, 2022 to December 31, 2025 to include a 21 1.5 percent wage increase retroactive to 22 January 1st, 2022 and a wage reopener for 23 January 2023, '24 and '25. 24 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you. 25 Could I have a motion, please. 60 1 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: I move it. 2 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: I will second 3 it. 4 MR. CIRILO: Madam Chair, on the 5 motion. 6 Commissioner Council. 7 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: Yes. 8 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Haqq. 9 COMMISSIONER HAQQ: Yes. 10 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Muhammad. 11 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Yes. 12 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Baez. 13 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Yes. 14 MR. CIRILO: Chairwoman Gonzalez. 15 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Yes. 16 MR. CIRILO: Motion passes. 17 Madam Chair, the next resolution reads 18 resolution authorizing the Executive Director to 19 award a project to Crown Village South Orange 20 Avenue, Incorporated subject to the execution of a 21 redevelopment agreement to develop affordable 22 housing units in Newark's West Ward. 23 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Commissioner 24 Gonzalez. 25 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Yes, sir. 61 1 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: There is some 2 conversation we had in the work session that I need 3 to make sure that is in the record. You know, 4 number one, we were talking about labor they are 5 getting sixty dollars an hour. Number two, they 6 said they are not going to use credit rating for the 7 people to get in and, number three, they are going 8 to use our basis of when we critique people for 9 apartments. 10 So I'd like to -- I don't know if, 11 Elio, should that be written in because I don't want 12 nobody to forget that was a work session. Nobody 13 knows what is happening, but the man said they are 14 going to do sixty dollars an hour. I heard the 15 Council couple months ago we are going to get 16 everything down with the stadium. That is still not 17 done. I'd like to put that in writing if possible 18 sixty dollars an hour for laborers, that there is 19 not going to be no credit check, that is not meet 20 the criteria and they are going to use the Housing 21 Authority criteria. I'd like to have that in the 22 resolution. 23 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you and I 24 believe that they agreed to that and I believe all 25 our meetings are recorded. 62 1 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Our work 2 session is not recorded. They are not recorded. 3 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: They did agree 4 to that, Elio. 5 MR. MENA: Yes, for the record that 6 should be part of the redeveloper's agreement and it 7 is on the record. 8 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: It is on the 9 record now. 10 MR. MENA: It is on the record of this 11 Board meeting and then when the agreement is 12 negotiated and put down in writing, it should be 13 incorporated into it. 14 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Elio, if you 15 like it, I love it. Thank you. 16 MR. MENA: You're welcome. 17 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Anymore 18 questions on this resolution? If not, can I please 19 have a motion. 20 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: I move it. 21 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: I second. 22 MR. CIRILO: Madam Chair, on the 23 motion. 24 Commissioner Council. 25 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: Yes. 63 1 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Haqq. 2 COMMISSIONER HAQQ: Yes. 3 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Muhammad. 4 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Yes. 5 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Baez. 6 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Absolutely, yes. 7 MR. CIRILO: Chairwoman Gonzalez. 8 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Yes. 9 MR. CIRILO: Motion passes. 10 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Next 11 resolution, Director. 12 MR. CIRILO: Madam Chair, the next 13 resolution reads resolution certifying the Newark 14 Housing Authority Board of Commissioners review of 15 fiscal and compliance audit report for the fiscal 16 year ended December 31, 2021. 17 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Can I have a 18 motion. 19 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: I will move 20 it. 21 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: Second. 22 MR. CIRILO: Madam Chair, on the 23 motion. 24 Commissioner Council. 25 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: Yes. 64 1 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Haqq. 2 COMMISSIONER HAQQ: Yes. 3 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Muhammad. 4 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Yes. 5 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Baez. 6 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Abstain. 7 MR. CIRILO: Chairwoman Gonzalez. 8 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Yes. 9 MR. CIRILO: Motion passes. 10 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Next 11 resolution, please. 12 MR. CIRILO: Yes, Madam Chair, the 13 next resolution reads the resolution executing a 14 contract with Always Safe Sidewalks to repair the 15 sidewalk trip hazards at various sites and to 16 improve REAC scores for a term of two years in an 17 amount not to exceed three hundred thousand dollars 18 whichever comes first. 19 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Could I have a 20 motion? 21 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: I will move it 22 for you. 23 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Second. 24 MR. CIRILO: Madam Chair, on the 25 motion. 65 1 Commissioner Council. 2 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: Yes. 3 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Haqq. 4 COMMISSIONER HAQQ: Yes. 5 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Muhammad. 6 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Yes. 7 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Baez. 8 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Yes. 9 MR. CIRILO: Chairwoman Gonzalez. 10 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: I'm going to 11 abstain. 12 MR. CIRILO: Motion passes. 13 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you. 14 MR. CIRILO: Madam Chair, the next 15 resolution reads resolution amending resolution 16 H-21-22-07-04 and authorizes an amended contract 17 with Silva's Mechanical Services for the provision 18 of labor and materials to clean and repair boilers 19 agency wide increasing the contract amount by two 20 hundred thirty-five thousand dollars to cover 21 unanticipated boiler expenses caused by Superstorm 22 Ida for an aggregate contract amount not to exceed 23 one million forty-five thousand dollars. 24 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Commissioner 25 Gonzalez. 66 1 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Yes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Are we going 3 to add the money from the insurance company into 4 this and deduct the number, the money that we 5 retrieved from the Traveler's Insurance Company? 6 MR. CIRILO: We are working on that 7 currently. 8 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: So it is not 9 going to be actually included in the resolution? 10 You understand what I am saying, in other words, 11 Commissioner Council brought up that if we got a 12 couple hundred thousand dollars, we don't need all 13 the money that we are asking for. If we have it, 14 you guys are going to move it back over so I don't 15 know which way are you going to do it. Are you 16 going to stay with this resolution or are you going 17 to put the insurance money in here that you got from 18 Travelers. 19 MR. CIRILO: Yes, I can answer that 20 through the Chair. Thank you, Commissioner. We 21 don't know yet the total that would be refunded 22 through the insurance program, however, we do need 23 to make sure that there is sufficient space under 24 this contract to cover any unanticipated situations. 25 So to answer your question the answer is yes, 67 1 anything that is reimbursable would be deducted from 2 the total amount, however, this is a not to exceed 3 amount and we need to make sure this contract is 4 added on so that we can be in a safe position. 5 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Madam Chair, who 6 is Silva Mechanical, have we worked with them 7 before? 8 MR. CIRILO: Through the chair, Madam 9 Chair, yes, Commissioner, we approved a resolution 10 21-22-07-04 already with Silva Mechanical Services. 11 They were extended an original contract last year if 12 I recall so this just amends that approval. This 13 was a public bid. 14 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: If no more 15 questions, I would like to entertain a motion. 16 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: I will move 17 it. 18 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Second. 19 MR. CIRILO: Madam Chair, on the 20 motion. 21 Commissioner Council. 22 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: Yes. 23 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Haqq. 24 COMMISSIONER HAQQ: Yes. 25 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Muhammad. 68 1 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Yes. 2 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Baez. 3 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Yes. 4 MR. CIRILO: Chairwoman Gonzalez. 5 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Yes. 6 MR. CIRILO: Motion passes. 7 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Commissioner 8 Gonzalez, if you're finished with the resolution, I 9 have a question. 10 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Before you have 11 your question, Commissioner, I thought that this 12 item, the next item on security. Maybe a wrong 13 agenda, I'm sorry. 14 MR. CIRILO: Madam Chair, you and I 15 had a discussion about that resolution. We agreed 16 it would be posted at the next Board of 17 Commissioners session in December. However, it 18 doesn't affect any contractual obligations in terms 19 of payment or in terms of manpower requests. 20 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Okay, I'm not 21 requesting a motion. We are just going to not -- we 22 are going to wait for the next work session. 23 Commissioner, you had a question. 24 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Yes. 25 Mr. E.D., I heard that we really helping out in 69 1 Riviera situation. I was watching the Council 2 meeting the other day. Tell us what we are doing, 3 how we treating them with the Section 8 on this 4 situation or what are you doing. 5 MR. CIRILO: It is not really me per 6 se and I appreciate the speaker earlier mentioning 7 that it is a collective effort. The City of Newark 8 right now through the homeless Czar, the office of 9 the Council President we are working together 10 collectively to see how some of the shelter bound 11 folks at the Riviera Hotel can be helped through 12 some of our emergency Section 8 vouchers that we 13 have in place. We have asked HUD for the ability to 14 designate a certain amount of vouchers, a handful of 15 vouchers for only those folks that are truly home 16 bound. We have some serious personal situations. I 17 don't want to get too much into personal lives, but 18 there are some hardships that are being experienced 19 by folks that need to be moved out and the office 20 has reached out to us and we are working to see what 21 we can could to assist. We will have more 22 information once that process or that option is in 23 place. 24 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: Madam Chair, 70 1 just real briefly. To go back to what we discussed 2 even at the premeeting and now moving forward in 3 regards to us coming up on winter season and the 4 things that have been occurring with our boiler 5 operators. Just ensuring that we are in place in 6 terms of enough workers or if not making sure that 7 we have a rotation that requires overtime as well as 8 spot checks to ensure that individuals are in the 9 areas where they need to be and to make sure that 10 all logs and information is accurate and updated so 11 that as we go through that information that we are 12 being prudent about the services that we are 13 rendering and ensuring the monitoring and well-being 14 of the safety and security of the residents, 15 especially as it relates to not just boilers, but 16 water heaters and units as well so that we can be in 17 front of some of these issues and things that we are 18 having and then also making sure that we have 19 systems in place where people are supposed to be 20 where they are supposed to be at. 21 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Duly noted and 22 we have the team here who is listening to your 23 comments. Thank you. 24 Any other comments? Okay, before we 25 close I just wanted to thank all the Commissioners, 71 1 the speakers for being here tonight and also the 2 Commissioners that went out to the training this 3 past Monday and Tuesday. 4 Now, I would just like to entertain a 5 motion to adjourn the meeting. 6 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: Motion to 7 adjourn. 8 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Second. 9 MR. CIRILO: Madam Chair, on the 10 motion. 11 Commissioner Council. 12 COMMISSIONER COUNCIL: Yes. 13 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Haqq. 14 COMMISSIONER HAQQ: Yes. 15 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Muhammad. 16 COMMISSIONER MUHAMMAD: Yes. 17 MR. CIRILO: Commissioner Baez. 18 COMMISSIONER BAEZ: Yes. 19 MR. CIRILO: Chairwoman Gonzalez. 20 CHAIRPERSON GONZALEZ: Yes. 21 MR. CIRILO: Motion passes. 22 23 (Whereupon, the proceedings were 24 concluded at 6:30 p.m.) 25 72 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 I, ANTHONY HOFMANN, a Certified Court 4 Reporter, and Notary Public within and for the State 5 of New Jersey, certify that the foregoing is a true 6 and accurate transcript of the stenographic notes of 7 said witness(es)who were first duly sworn by me, on 8 the date and place hereinbefore set forth. 9 10 11 12 ___________________________ ANTHONY HOFMANN, C.C.R. 13 LICENSE NO. XIO1854 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25